Friday, August 20, 2010

This is about 5 hours worth of work, so know that I did put a lot of time and thought into it.   I listened to one of the talks at a site my cousin gave me.  I didn’t know which one she listened to, so I picked one on my own.  I really went into it with an open mind, but it didn’t take long before I was upset.  Not specifically with what he was saying, but just the fact that what he was saying about the Catholic Church was incorrect.  So, I will not be doing a reflection on the readings but I will post the next one.  But I listened to this in its entirety, and then again very slowly.  I don’t plan on convincing anyone of what may be right or wrong, but my intention is, if you listen to this, to have a proper understanding of the Catholic Church “actually” teaches, not what this person says it teaches. 

http://www.valleyreallife.org/audiovideo/sermons/wtd/ChristianityVsCatholicism.mp3

5:25 – Starts actual talk

6:10 – Not all Catholic Churches follow the teachings and instruction of the Catechism.  If that is true, those churches are in error. 

6:13 – The Catechism is not the foundation of the Catholic Churches beliefs.  It is a book put together to state clearly what the Church’s teachings are.

6:57 – Sola Scriptura – If it cannot be found or rooted in the Bible it should not be believed.  He does not tell us where the Bible came from.  Here is a link that talks about where the Bible came from.

http://download.biblechristiansociety.com/files/which_came_first_church_or_bible.mp3.  Think about this, Sola Scriptura as a practice is a tradition. 

7:10 – It would be nice, if you are quoting something and want to be accurate and credible, give us a precise place of the quote.  The Catechism is easily broken down in Paragraphs that are numbered.  Whenever he quotes the Catechism, that is all he says.  1 second to say what paragraph.  When he quotes the Scripture, he does not say “from the Bible.”  But I will try to do his job for him.   The underlined portions are what he leaves out.  

Paragraph 77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.'"35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source . . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."41

. . . two distinct modes of transmissio

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42 "And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

8:12 – It is true that teachings laid down by Catholic tradition are to be followed by Catholics.  But there is no teaching that can be in opposition to Scripture (a Catholic interpretation of Scripture) because Truth cannot be in contradiction of itself. 

For the believer in Sola Scriptura, what is the reason for Paul to write this in 1Cor. 11:2   I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

9:51 -  The Magisterium of the Church – Paragraph 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication, and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me,"49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

He says that the Magisterium has exclusive authority to tell Catholics what is truth, and what isn’t.  I don’t think that is what this quote says.  It says the Church gives us an authentic interpretation of Scripture and Tradition.  That includes quite bit of what is true and not true, but not exclusive.  For example, the different theories on creation.  The Catholic Church does not give an exclusive teaching on what we must believe.  They do lay out certain things that from Scripture and Tradition we must adhere to, but does not say we must believe it was 7 exact days as we know it or that we cannot believe in some form of evolution.  That is for us to digest and form on our own.  And that is just one example.

10:37 – “what this essentially means to the average Catholic is that they are neither responsible nor able to determine what is truth.”  This is a complete misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching.  And I listened to it several times to try and get the quote exactly right.  The fact that I read the scripture and interpret it and study it on my own has increased my faith in the Catholic Church.  We are called to read the scriptures, to pray and study on our own.  If my blood was at a simmer earlier, it grew to a full boil after this. 

12:25 – 1 John 2:26-27   I write you these things about those who would deceive you. As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.”   His interpretation of this is that when you are given the Holy Spirit, that Spirit will teach you what you need to know so you do not need anyone instructing you.  When I received the Holy Spirit, it did give me graces to yearn for knowledge and it will guide me to seek knowledge, but by being given the Holy Spirit and to think that I will not need guidance after that just seems ridiculous. 

13:18 – The teaching of the Catholic Church has nothing to do with how smart you are.  It has to do with the authority given by God.  I cannot make a new for the United States.  I cannot even make a law inside my own house without my wife agreeing to it.  That has nothing to do with intelligence, but authority.  The Catholic Church doesn’t say you are not smart enough to have the authentic interpretation, but the authority.  He will get into his thoughts on authority in a minute. 

13:38 – He is very gifted at speaking about a certain topic or word and then quickly changing the word to make a statement that is rude, is the best word to describe it.  He was talking about interpreting authentically the Bible.  But in his example, he says the person should not be allowed to “read” the Bible.  This seems to have been done to get a laugh.  And then he says this was done to him.  Not by a Catholic, but Protestant.  I have already stated that he is misstating the Catholic Churches teaching on this topic, so I will leave it at that. 

14:35 – So wait a minute.  People did teach and instruct him.  He did not learn everything from the Holy Spirit.  And he still has a ton to learn.  Where is he going to get that knowledge.  Godly people will come into his life and speak to him so that he will gain knowledge from them.  That is the beauty of Christianity.  If anyone tries to take the Holy Spirit’s place in your life, that is not Christianity.  I don’t want to spend too much time on this or this is going to get really out of control, but how does he know these people are not going to lead him astray.  And what their instructions to him are not Scripture so he should not follow them.  And if the Holy Spirit inside of him has given him all the answers, why does he still have a lot to learn.  What I heard, when he said this, is that I don’t know everything, but I will learn from people, I just won’t learn from people that believe differently than me.  Following exactly what he said, I have not learned everything from the Holy Spirit that is inside of me and I have a lot to learn.  I have learned a great deal from Godly people, most of the those being Catholics.  And I will continue to learn, mostly from Catholics.  He and I are exactly the same, it is just who we allow ourselves to be instructed by.  This all will come back to authority.

15:16 – The Catholic Church’s hierarchy does have these verses as a foundation for their teachings on St. Peter and the Pope.  Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

That is not the only evidence it uses though.  I have pointed out in our reading of Acts that in the early Church, Peter was seen to be the head of Councils on issues, given the vision of accepting Gentiles, he is mentioned more than any other apostle. 

17:00 – He brings up that just a few passages later Jesus calls Peter Satan.  It is a teaching moment.  He is saying the God’s ways are not human ways.  Peter is human and he struggles a lot throughout the Gospels.  Does that take away what Christ told him about building his Church on him.  In his interpretation of Scripture, at least here, because one thing happened after the other, you ignore the first.  All Scripture in Scripture and in not take away from itself.  I do have to give him credit.  That is the first time I have heard that argument.   And if he really believes Sola Scriptura, he probably shouldn’t misquote the Scriptures.  No translation I found says “You’re Satan”.  What is his interpretation of “you are rock and on this rock I will build my church”. 

18:00 – Authority is given to all the Apostles.  Completely true.  It is Matthew 18:18.  But that is only one part of what Jesus told Peter.  Building the Kingdom on Peter was not told to the other Apostles.  And “this” scripture is the reason why it is the Pope “along with the Bishops” that form the Magisterium.  They have authority as well, given to them by Christ. 

18:13 – As stated, Peter does show authority over the others at points in Acts and people can be critical of people with authority, that does not take away their authority.  So, when he says Paul was critical of Peter’s handling of the Gentiles, that means very little.  I can be critical of the President, that does not change the authority he has.  Actually, Paul being critical of Peter’s actions means that he thought Peter was a leader or example and shows that he thought Peter should be acting differently.  And that if Peter acted differently or did things differently, others would follow.  So, his point about Paul’s criticism, I think, actually hurts the point he was trying to make.

19:35 – Peter only had two letters.  If he was so important, wouldn’t he have more.  Paul had so many.  By his logic, Paul is obviously more important than Peter.   According to that logic, Paul is more important than Jesus because Jesus didn’t write any books.  Obviously, he is not saying this, but you see my point.

21:50 – He is saying that because Peter mentions Paul and his teachings, Paul was more important.  This is exactly the point I made because Paul talked about Peter’s teachings.  Paul does have teaching authority in the Church and is considered an Apostle in many respects.  That puts him into the Magisterium authority.

21:10 – You really have to love the imagination he has for twisting this.  Peter is “instructing” them to be aware of those that may “instruct” you.  This goes back to the same point as before, about having all the knowledge we need from the Holy Spirit.  Why did the early Church write these letters if not to teach.  It is being taught by the correct people that Peter is talking about, and here, he and I disagree about who the right people are.  But says nothing to the authority of Peter accept as to say that the early Church did have some people of authority that the early Christians looked to for knowledge.  And the people they looked to were the Apostles or Magisterium of the Church. 

2 Peter 3:15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, 16 speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. 18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

22:23 – Here he uses that quote from the Catechism to twist this reading.  What does he think docility means.  He wants it to mean ignorantly obedient.  What it actually means is easily or ready to be taught.  The Church wants its faithful to be easily and ready to be taught.  I can’t see why he believes that to be so bad.  If he is someone who is truthfully seeking the truth and admits he has a “ton to learn”, he should be ready to be taught as well.  And he is, for those who agree with him.  And he probably hopes those listening are “ready to be taught” or else why would he be doing this.

23:16 – We gets a little loud here about not following anything that is not written down.  Here I would point out that Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible, following tradition is, and the early Christians did not have a Bible to read.  There was no agreed Canon of Scriptures until around 300 AD

23:40 – Here we go with Mary. 

Paragraph  963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

I. Mary's Motherhood with Regard to the Church
Wholly united with her Son . .
964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption
966 "Finally
the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
967
By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514II. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

I guess it would be easier to underline what he does quote. 

25:38 – Mary was not stained with original sin.  This does not make her the equal of Christ, the Son of God and that is not the Catholic Church’s teaching.  There are many important people in the Church.  Only one was chosen to carry Jesus in a particular way.  Mary was saved through Christ, who is God, who made Mary.  Is it beyond God’s power to create a human without sin to be the tabernacle for His only Son. 

27:19 -  2 Corinthians 5:21  For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.  I have no idea how he finds this to be a list of people that are born without sin.   It is a description of Jesus and He being our righteousness.  The Catholic Church’s teaching is that Mary was without sin, not that she is our savior.  And for him to say he “means no offense” in the tone in which it is said, is offensive. 

28:05 – Queen of heaven.  All the writings he talks about that do not mention Mary, especially JOHN’s writings, he doesn’t mention Revelation and its talk of a Queen of Heaven.  Who is Revelation 12:1 talking about according to him.  

29:25 – Mary is a model for the Church of Faith and Charity.  Just looking at that without even listening, what is wrong with having Mary as a role-model.    “Live a life, filled with love, following the example of Christ”  This, he claims to be quoting from Ephesians 5:2.  I don’t know which Bible translation that is, but I could not find that wording.  It doesn’t matter, the point he is trying to make is that Christ is our only example of how to live life.  He is a perfect example, but that doesn’t mean we can’t looked to others to try and model ourselves.  Jesus had no children, Am I not suppose to look to fatherly examples to better myself as a father.  And Christ was not a women.  Who is a woman suppose to look to as a example for things that are particular to women.  We are to look to Christ as an example, but to interpret this as meaning only Christ is an example I believe is incorrect. 

30:27 – Jesus “likes” His mom.  This literally almost made me do a spit take.  Jesus loves His mother.  And to say that because in the few quotes that says God does not have favorites, what does Luke 1:30 mean when the angel says “you have found favor with God”.  He picked Noah, He picked the Israelites.  I believe this is another misinterpretation.  God may not show favoritism, by the way I know what Bible he is using now because only one I found uses favoritism, but He definitely chooses people for certain task.  And favorites  

31:30 – The titles of Mary – This I really don’t have anything on.  I don’t really know how the Church comes up with these.  I did here something about also giving her the title of co-redemptrix but it was turned down or not accepted.  So, there is some reasoning and process by which these titles came to be, I am just not familiar with it

31:50 – Devotion to Mary is intrinsic to Christian Worship.  His logic is we are drawn to those who have done something for us.  Note that he quickly takes devotion and replaces it with worship and continues making the case of why we shouldn’t worship Mary.  The Catholic Church does not worship Mary.  And if you are drawn to those that have done things for you, I believe that Mary has prayed for me.  She has taken my petitions to her Son.  My wife feels very strongly that Mary was a great aid to her during her pregnancy.  We don’t worship Mary because of this and we don’t pray to Mary, but I do believe we owe her our gratitude.  I would feel nothing less than if someone helped me out of a jam.  I would owe them my gratitude.  This feeling takes nothing away from my worship of Jesus but in fact, enhances it.  

35:50 – Is it natural to worship someone other than God?  After he ask this, he seems to imply that it is ok to worship other things, but God deserves more of our worship.  I really think his definition of worship is off.  This entire portion is based on the misstatement of the Catholic belief in Mary

38:34 – His sum it all.  1. No Scriptural Integrity.  2. Eliminated Accountability of their teachings by self exaltation.  3. They foist (to force upon or impose fraudulently) spurious beliefs by keeping people Biblically Illiterate or Intimidation. 

39:00 – The rest is about why because of all these things, Christians will never be able to unite with Catholics. 

39:27 – Anyone outside the Church is not saved.  That is a hard one.  The priest was correct, but there needs to be a little more explained.  There are ways that those outside the visible Catholic Earthly Church can be saved.  But the statement in regards to the Catholic Church is meant to mean the entire Catholic Church, earthly and other.  If a person were to die and falls under some exception or with God’s grace is brought into heaven, that person is considered part of the Catholic Church, regardless of what they were on earth.  So the statement is true, but I would imagine the speaker does not understand the Catholic Church’s teaching this, much like he hasn’t understood many Catholic teachings. 

As stated throughout, this person does not speak about the Catholic Church’s teaching correctly.  I am sure that most of the people that listen to him don’t understand that when they hear this.  Many Catholics may hear him and leave because of his teaching.  That would be sad.  I don’t know if he does so with malice or ignorance.  That is between he and God.  I pray for him.  We need to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches, not what others tell us it teaches.  We are not called to be ignorant followers.  We are called to know Christ and know His Church and His Truth.  We are to have a relationship with Christ.  His view of Christianity sounds great.  To give your life over to Christ and then let the Holy Spirit guide your life.  I would agree with that.  Where we disagree is where we get our guidance.  His is from Godly people who agree with him.  I chose the Catholic Church and its 2,000 years of teachings and traditions.  Christ called for unity in His Church.  This gentlemen says he will never join with the Catholics because of what he believes are their teachings.  I pray someone comes into his life, a Godly person, who he will listen to, at least in order to inform him of what the Catholic teachings actually are.  I don’t have any issue with a person preaching honestly about his beliefs and how they may differ, but if you do so, make sure you are correct about what you are saying.   

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